A couple weeks ago I had a great time with a close family member who is still a very loyal member of the Seventh-day Adventist organization. Some people believe they can pinpoint the errors in beliefs about God that would prevent a person from having what they call “saving faith” in God. I’ve been one of those people. When pressed, they (I) would admit we don’t know the person’s heart, but we DO absolutely know they are wrong. It was evident to me this family member of mine (after many heart to heart talks) has the same heart I do – one that resonates of the same Holy Spirit and the Love He pours out, in spite of some really huge differences of opinion on doctrines. If we were forced to talk about the fine print, we would still strongly disagree and say the other is wrong. But how much does that matter to God? How much does that matter to each other? Maybe this person still believes I’m wrong enough to go to hell in the end, but she is kind enough to not let on. I don’t believe that about her (and actually never have.)
God has been widening my horizons at a painfully quick pace the last year or so, and He showed me much during this visit as well. I realize that if I went back a few years on this blog, there are posts I probably wouldn’t write now. While I still passionately believe the core issues that delivered us from legalism, that same legalism has taken a long long time to work its way out of my thought processes. It is so easy to replace one form of legalism with another.
When we leave a system of belief that touts itself as the elite truth above all others, we immediately sense battle lines will be drawn. We need a way to reassure ourselves that we truly are right. Often doubt and fear can creep in so we fortify our defenses, and as happens in all wars, the”enemy” becomes much worse in our eyes. I believe most fractures over religion – in families, churches, etc., come not so much from the differences in the beliefs we hold, but the attitudes of the heart that lead us to feel we are superior, and the desire to exert control of our position over others.
I had already begun to write this post when someone on our forum for HRM friends and family asked a question about spiritual fruit. The individual wanted to know what the connection was between this movement and the fruit of love in its followers. Are there any loving Torah Observant people? Are they all cold and judgmental? (Don’t look at their comments here, but no – they are not). Does it matter what theology they have if they are kind? And does their theology interfere with that?
Lots of loaded, complex questions here. Jesus said to identify false teachers by their fruit (love rather than Pharisaical righteousness or knowledge), so these are really important questions. And is there a difference between a false teacher and the followers? Is it more difficult for a teacher to be blindly sincere than the follower? I just like to ask questions I don’t have answers for.
As my very long story posted on this blog tells, my eyes were initially opened to the error of our law-centric theology by the overall lack of good fruit (as defined by Jesus) in the Hebrew Roots Movement. Yes, there were exceptions to this generalization, but the overall atmosphere and focus did not naturally generate a loving, compassionate, sacrificial attitude toward anyone who was not aligned with our way of thinking. And Jesus did say there wasn’t any glory in loving those who love you back, because well… anyone can do that. When you love the unloveable, then you are on your way to being perfect, “as My Father is perfect”.
So, we moved on to enthusiastically embrace mainstream Christianity, where we knew things would be so much better. That idealism eventually died as well. I am starting to see a more level playing field between those who claim truth and those accused of error.
Jesus remains my Truth and the most beautiful love ever demonstrated to humanity. But I see that we who call ourselves by His name, in general, don’t know Him, and His verdict on false religion is that HE never knew us. The heresy hunter’s favorite accusation is that cults invent their own Jesus. And they often do. But I’ve seen some strange versions of Him in the evangelical world too. If it’s true what they say, that a false Jesus can’t save you, then maybe we should start getting to really know Him. Really. Know His heart before we seek to know soteriology, ecclesiology, eschatology. What does He love? What does He hate? When you fall in love, you crave to know everything you can about the object of your desire, but you would not cut them open to study their organ tissue. You would LISTEN to them and enjoy their company. Scientists study cadavers and cells under microscopes. They have great knowledge but take no thought of the life it used to be, before it came under their knife. It is no longer a being but a source of information. Do we benefit from what they learn? Yes. But oh the grief of what we may lose if we insist on living in the knowledge of God without really knowing Him. We may look at a tissue sample and come to very wrong conclusions, because we see such a small part of the picture.
So what do we do with this fruit problem? I rejected a movement on a premise that indicts most of Western Civilization and its institutions, in orthodoxy or heresy either one. The world is an unloving place but the light and fire of Christ still burns, sometimes in the most unexpected places. I don’t have an answer for the question about theology and fruit. Maybe there is a flaw in the knowledge base somewhere, but I have come to believe that the problem is not a lack of knowledge, but a failure to integrate Truth (Jesus) into the fabric of our whole being. We have selfistic (my word) desires, half-truths from the world systems, a million other “isms” competing to be our paradigm for life. This isn’t just an American problem, it’s an ancient one.
When Yahweh delivered the Hebrew nation from their slavery, they did not have a knowledge of Him in the way He was planning to reveal Himself. They could comprehend very little of their Father and Creator, and even with amazing displays of power, didn’t believe He loved them enough to sustain them. They didn’t resemble a priesthood, or a bride. Yet these are the symbols He used to refer to them and describe His desires for them. Even in their state of helplessness and ignorance he demanded Pharaoh, “Let my people go!” They were HIS people, based on His covenant with their fathers, not on their own merit or worthiness.
Today there are many many children of God held captive by dogmas and falsehoods of countless kinds. Can any of us say we really have everything right about God? I don’t find my security in that pursuit. And I don’t see other people’s spiritual worth from that vantage point either, anymore. I can see where a certain untruth can hurt them, or others – like the whips of the slave owner. But maybe someone is saying, “Let my daughter go. Let my son be free to serve me in joy.” Maybe they belong to Him right where they are, right now.
“Love the Lord you God with all your heart, mind and soul. Love one another as I have loved you.” These simple words will shatter slave-holding dogmas, if taken to heart.
God didn’t call me to be right. He called me to be love. It has taken a lot of humbling for me to give up that desire and pursuit. I love to be right more than just about anyone. (Ask my husband!) What good will it do to uphold the foundations of doctrinal purity while we let our love and compassion wither on the vine?
I am not negating the whole purpose of this blog. I believe cults and heresies rob people because they cloud the Son. But my reason for speaking isn’t to prove someone wrong. It’s to point to the Son, so we may all be healed. Because we all need that, no matter how right .. we think we are.
Only a small part of truth can be understood. The rest must be caught as an intense longing for a beautiful, loving, harmonious world. Truth is something much better than a set of ideas.
-Richard Wurmbrand
8thDay4Life 
This is beautifully written, my friend! I agree with what you’ve shared here and have arrived at the same conclusions. Love is the deciding factor! His agape love trumps everything else. ♥
Thank you! I’m amazed how long it takes to “get” something so simple. For me anyway. 🙂
Loving others is the hardest and most satisfying thing we can do. Father is taking many of us right into His heart, there to be loved, empowered to love ourselves and others and so to multiply His Kingdom. I like the title of your blog. Sunday is the day the New Creation began.
I am still praying about the multiplying the kingdom part! I feel so ineffective in that area – but I know the work of Love cannot be rushed. So I wait..oh so not very patiently. ha.
I thought about this great post all day yesterday. To hunger and thirst to know the Son is eternal life – even in the here and now!
In re-reading this morning, something stood out. When our gentle Savior said, “Depart from me, ” it was on one basis; I never knew you.”
The will of the Father for us is to know the Son. Jesus’ commands for us are to love one another as He loved us. But He loved us and knew us from eternity past. How beautiful.
Yes that was the passage I had in mind when I was writing too. Jeff has a shirt that says, “Do I know you?” – Jesus.
I’m new to the blog so keep that in mind as I type a question or two 😉
I’m in limbo between Torah Observant and Traditional Christianity. My TO friends make amazing points. Then, I hash their points out with my church friends and just end up more confused. I have love for both “sides” as long as (like you said) the focus is on Jesus and the fruit produced is of fellow humans.
In reading your (beautiful) post above, I am left wondering if you have changed stance on anything? As someone who is studying, searching, and pulling my hair out, LOL, I’m curious.
I can reply more fully after this weekend. I am away from my computer for a few days. I have not changed my position at all in regard to the New Covenant. Be wary of thinking something is true based on the fact that no one seems to be able to argue it effectively. Very few evangelicals know how to answer the assertions of the Hebrew Roots Movement. In fact a large percentage already live in a law pardigm which leaves them vulnerable to HRM teaching becauaae from a law based perspective it can seem more consistent. Welcome and thank you for asking!
Thank you!
I’ve clicked around the blog a bit more and read your 27-page letter to your former congregation. Page 24 says perfectly what my hesitation was when I was leaning towards HR.
Enjoy your weekend and thank you for the reply!
I have no idea what was on page 24 but I’m glad!! ha. It’s too long for me to even read now. I will say that I’ve had contact with several people since we have come out, who have written to me in distress about their family members (or spouses) who have gotten involved in this. They describe a very drastic change in their personality and behavior. They become hard, cold, judgmental of the rest of the family, obsessive, and it is tearing families apart. If people could just choose this path and let everyone else follow their own convictions without strife, that would be great. But that is not the nature of LAW is it. The law says MUST. I think this is the tendency more than the exception, and sadly, it’s causing a great deal of pain and suffering. God bless and lead you in your search to understand Him more!
LAST question, I promise! If the answer is in the blog someplace, please direct me to it and I’ll do my own reading 🙂
One of the verses my HRM friends use a good bit is 2 Peter 3:16 (English Standard Version (ESV)
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.)
What is your take on that verse? I’ve had had it quoted to me as the last part saying “using the words to be lawless” however a quick search did not show any translations that used “lawlessness” as the result of Paul’s teachings…
Still working things out in my head! Thank you!
Ask as many questions as you like! Gives me something to do when I can’t sleep.
Verse 17 in the HSBC says, “Therefore, dear friend, since you know this in advance, be on your guard, so that you are not led away by the error of lawless people and fall from your own stability.”
When T.O. people see “lawless” they cannot think outside the Law of Moses. However, if you will read everything Peter said in both letters, as I have just done, you will find absolutely no evidence that he is referring to this law. If you were to outline all of his exhortations, you would find them echoing the words of Jesus in a beautiful way. Peter says, “I saw all He suffered with my own eyes!” He is imploring the early church to walk worthy of this calling – and to realize how costly a gift they have been called to receive. He also has an entire section dedicated to false teachers – so we know the nature of the “twisting” that was going on, and the motives of the hearts in the false teachers. Taken in the context of all that Peter has said, I cannot come to the conclusion that he feared followers of Jesus would cease to keep the Sabbath, feasts, or stay kosher. In fact I can’t find an exhortation about anywhere in the entire New Testament can you? It is important to hear the heart of God through the entire witness. I could just go on for hours about the treasures just in Peter’s letters alone, but it’s probably better if you mine them out on your own. I especially like the part about how our ability to live pleasing to God comes from His Divine nature – not a law. But I will stop there. 🙂
You hit on my second topic of confusion! The word “lawless” is used over and over to describe those who will not see the Kingdom. I’ve seen some translations where “law” is translated as “torah”. I have no idea how to search out the original meaning of “lawless” each time it appears in the NT…
If you have alot of time, you can look into the Greek words for Law in the New Testament and see the differences in their meanings and use. (E-sword is a great free software resource for this if you don’t already have it). Generally though I don’t think you have to look any further than the context of the passages in question. They usually explain themselves. Keep in mind the Epistles are letters, and should be read as a whole. Also the New Covenant Scriptures have Jesus at the center, not the Law of Moses, so if we are looking for Him, things become much clearer and the confusion seems to disappear. One really great resource (with lots of nuts and bolts theology) is Joyfully Growing in Grace here on WordPress. She is my inspiration. 🙂 http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/the-law-of-christ-defined-and-defended/ This article might help on that topic, and check out her articles tab. It’s a gold mine!
I’ve seen the JGIG site! I “liked” it on FB and one of my friends who is HR messaged me just to warn me that the site has some messages that aren’t biblical.
I just feel like I have no discernment, anymore! Everyone makes such wonderful arguments!
I *want* there to be a New Covenant (Christ’s Law, if you may) because the other way is isolating. However, nothing is too burdensome for me if it’s what He wants.
I am NOT trying to drag out this conversation, but I keep doing it! You have been so kind in replying to me, LOL.
JGIG is not very popular with HRM followers. 🙂 I would definitely keep her in mind though. She has it nailed down. But I understand your confusion believe me. I was born into the Law-centered SDA church, so being incubated in that it literally took years and Divine intervention for me to see things through any other lens. My highest recommendation, which has brought great insight to me every single time, is to just read through the NT in prayer, from start to finish. Ask the Spirit to teach you and put away all other teachings and disucssions (including me, lol.). There is no substitute for this experience. I didn’t see it all at one time, but every time I saw a little more. Many in the HRM say they all knew the NT but never learned the Old – so they are on a quest to learn what the “Father” wants. Hebrews 1:1 says… Jesus is the final word, not the lesser word. I take that very seriously. You are welcome to email me if you would rather, but it’s good to have the discussion in comments too. You are not bothering me. I started this blog for folks like you!! 🙂
Meh, I don’t mind doing it in the open. I have a very public blog (about my youngest’s health issues) and have opened up our finances, faith, and our family to everyone. It’s been more positive than negative 🙂
So, in particular, 1 John 3:4
(4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.)
I feel much better when I exhale and focus on God’s Grace and push the HR out of my mind, but then I’m always reminded of the verse in Jeremiah that tells me my heart is flesh and cannot be trusted….
I really look forward to reading your blog. It looks like you have been on a grace walk already of epic proportions. If we are a New Creation in Christ, doesn’t He guide our hearts? Not that we can’t be deceived, but it was my heart that knew the HRM was hurting me before my head figured it out. I think in the long run, anyone who truly desires Christ more than anything else will not follow a stranger. That’s a promise. And as this post stated, many in the HRM have that heart, in spite of it.
I had I John quoted to me again in a discussion this week. The person continued by telling me I would be least in the Kingdom, if I were lucky enough to make it in at all. However, John explains what this Law is he is referring to. There is no need to wonder or speculate, or insert another meaning.
1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
It is so simple, yet we complicated it so badly. The NT has so many references warning against those who would wish to put new Gentile believers back under the law of Moses. But there isn’t a single reference exhorting them to keep those things which pertained to the observances the HRM holds up as their sacred cows. Did Jesus die on the cross to teach the whole world that they must keep the Sabbath? Are jungle tribes living off what they can hunt expected to restrict their diets to only clean meats? Was this the purpose for which he came? Is this really what the writers of the Early Church meant to convey? It doesn’t add up to me like that now.
I have a mentor friend who has been following this conversation and she really wants to pour her heart out. She has never been in the HRM, but lived the evangelical version of the same mindset for many years. I hope she comments, or gives me permission to quote her! Meeting her was a God send for me – as she helped me see that the path we traveled was not exclusive to this species of theology, and why so many are vulnerable to its teaching – because the foundation has already been laid in Christian theology which does not fully recognize how radical of a work God did in His Son, on our behalf.
My heart goes out to you with your son. We went through a cancer battle with my oldest son this last year. Hardest year of my life, but thankfully he was diagnosed in time and is good now. But it gave me a taste of what it is like to fear for the life of your child, and suffer as you watch them suffer. And it opened one more door for me to understand the love of God for us – as a Father. And His love is so much bigger than mine. Beyond my ability to comprehend!
Thank you so much! You didn’t have to look at the blog, but it means so much that you did. I describe it in M’s story tab but my body was literally taken over on the first “bad” day and I rushed us to the doctor having no idea why I was doing it. Mason crashed as we walked into the office. If that doesn’t knock you (general ‘you’) to your knees, I’m not sure what will!
Praise the Lord that your child’s cancer was caught and eradicated ❤
Since you are so graciously allowing me to drag out this conversation, I'll ask three more questions, LOL. I welcome your friend jumping in as well! The more the merrier 🙂
These questions are some that my HR friends (and since I feel like I'm talking about them, I'd just like to add that we have gentle, loving conversations about all of this. They point me to their "side" and I tell them whether I buy it or not, LOL. We adore each other no matter what path is chosen by me):
1) I'm unsure about how to respond/ what to think about the Disciples continuing to follow the Law.
2) It seems to be accepted knowledge that we will be following the Law during the Millennial Reign. Why dispose of it to bring it back?
3) Jesus was a teacher who walked the Law perfectly. Why would he teach it if we would not do it?
Well, it’s fine that I can use my over use of computer time for a good cause! ha. I don’t seem able to extract myself from it today. I will follow your story without a doubt, with prayers! We could see the hand of God in our situation too, in spite of the fact that He asked us to walk through it – He was there. I still had meltdowns (especially after it was all over and I didn’t have to be in survival mode anymore) and went through anger too (he didn’t deserve this… why didn’t you give it to me? kind of thing). But He was there, and He is good, and He did not smite me for my grumbling as I may have deserved.
I don’t feel exactly qualified to answer these 3 points.. but I will attempt it. First of all notice the nature of the questions the HRM generates. They are all Law centered – not Christ centered. Imagine a wagon wheel (my favorite illustration) and a hub at the center. If you place Jesus at the center, everything turns on Him, and points to Him. The Law, among many other things, becomes part of His picture. Now put the Law at the center and what happens? Jesus becomes a spoke that points to the Law – and everything else in Scripture must also bend to point to the Law, even if it doesn’t. So we have to take Scriptures out of context, reinterpret them, Create new translations that actually misrepresent the Hebrew/Greek… all to fit a premise that displaces Christ from His rightful place. So by the very nature of the debate that the HRM creates – it detracts away from Jesus.
But to the points themselves
1 – How much evidence is there that they did? In a cultural sense, Romans 14 states it was permissible but not obligatory. I find that this claim is hard to support because it simply isn’t even an issue on any of the direct teachings of the NT. There are references used to show that Paul did continue to keep the festivals.. but there is no big deal made about this – and one could speculate on other reasons why he did other than a ritual, obligatory observance. I can think of many other motivations. and in light of everything else he said about the subject of the Law, I can’t take the HRM explanation as correct. (anymore).
2 – There is a very huge diversity in Christianity about eschatology. This is a highly speculative area of theology and one which I would not base anything on as far as doctrine, especially if it contradicts the direct teachings of Apostles under the witness of the Holy Spirit. Either Acts, Galatians, Hebrews, and Romans (and more) are incorrect – or maybe there is a misunderstanding about how to interpret Ezekiel and Zechariah. I can’t give you the answers on how it all fits together, but I will take the clear over the cryptic any day.
3 On this point – I would make a careful reading (more than Matthew 5:17.. ha.) of all Jesus said and did. Seek to find his relationship to the Pharisees who were zealous for the Law, how he challenged the Sabbath (in a Torah sense, not just a rabbinical one) He established His authority in so many ways. HE is God. Torah is not. God has never changed the underlying principles of His Kingdom. But Windows XP and Windows 8 – while they have the same goal, operate on very different levels. This is a lousy analogy of a spiritual truth too big for me to explain. As I read through the gospels (upon my deliverance) I saw the heart of Jesus for the first time.. what mattered to Him most – what I had neglected to see as important at all. It was a humbling and caused me a great deal of grief and repentance actually – realizing I had actually, by focusing on the Law of Moses, denied Him in a sense.
I am very happy to hear you and your TO friends have an open, loving, mutually respectful friendship!! May it remain so! Where does your train of thought go when you imagine they might be right?
Here I will copy in what my friend Jan is bursting at the seams to tell you:
Shortly after my realizing that the Bible was TRUE and I was SAVED I was so enthused, I would have “borne any burden, paid any price” to please Him. (What it is about the fact that Jesus paid it all, bore it all, that we don’t understand?) We enrolled the kids in a fundamentalist Baptist church school that didn’t allow the girls (or their mothers) to wear pants. Based on two vague Scriptures they twisted out of all recognition. I gave up my jeans and capris and shorts joyfully. But when I realized both men and women in the Bible days wore long robes, and the admonitions were to not try to look like the other sex – without any specifics – I realized what a joy killer my efforts were. And very inconvenient and unnecessary.
The most important thing I would want to share with N is that walking in the Spirit is not lawlessness, it is allowing the Lover of our souls to write His law on our hearts. And then an honest look at Romans. Paul says there is nothing wrong with the Law, it is perfect and just and good. The problem is – US!! Slaves to sin and flesh. And when you apply the Law of Moses to that slavery to sin and flesh, Paul says the Law incites us to sin! It really says that! “When we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the Law were at work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death…” He calls the Law a “ministry of condemnation and death.”
Back to my pantless days: My efforts to please my wonderful Lord by “touch not, taste not,” eventually made me feel exactly like Paul, “who will deliver me from this body of death?” But JESUS has!!!
Jan and 8thday (Um, I need to peruse for a name… my apologies for not catching it if it’s been shared) thank you so much for your compassion and time!
I’ve got lots to chew on and feel very peaceful.
You asked how I feel when/if I feel like my HRM friends are correct and the answer is I feel scared and guilty. I want to love people (that’s a new thing for me) and Love God. I hate feeling like I’m disappointing Him by ignoring His Laws (if I am…). It’s all so confusing!
I love the wagon wheel analogy! Perfect!
I have lots of reading and Prayer to continue doing.
Once again, thank you both so very much ❤
My name is on this blog, but it’s not easy to find. lol. I am Sondra, and it’s been a privilege to discuss these things with you. I have a post on here somewhere called “HRM and Children” My son wrote his testimony of what it was like for him to spend time in this movement. That fear and guilt was so real to him it was overpowering and he was in despair. And I had no idea that’s what we were conveying to him.
My prayers are with you and I so appreciate your heart to please God and seek Him with your whole being. It is always so encouraging to meet someone with these desires! ❤
2 Cor 3, Romans 7 & 8…. beautiful passages about the New Covenant. All of Hebrews… LOVE that book. 🙂 Jesus Himself did not explain these things as the Apostles later did, which some take to discredit the NT, and prove Jesus spoke for the OC Law only. But in John He told His disciples that he had many other things to tell them, but they could not bear it yet. But when the Spirit of truth came, He would teach them all things. This is why I value so much the post Pentecost writings of the Early Church.
Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Still here.. Have to mention that the next accusation in this discussion is antinomianism… of truly being lawless and that if you say the Sabbath was a symbol fulfilled in Christ, then you must also condone murder and adultery. This is not walking in the Spirit – which is the Law of the New Covenant. This is a false accusation. The obedience in question – the things they believe Christians are being disobedient about – are not moral purity issues – but religious observance issues. And if we must keep Torah – we must accept many things that culture has thankfully come to believe are not acceptable, like slavery, stoning, concubines, patriarchal marriage, etc… This was most definitely an early and now obsolete version of God’s operating system. 😉
I’m still here, too! My son’s flight was cancelled and he is trying to get another one, so I may have to run any minute. Meanwhile, he is stuck in Chicago.
Just had two thoughts. I thought the disciples were criticized for not keeping the Law. By John the Baptist’s disciples (for not washing according to ritual) and for eating with sinners (at Matthew’s dinner). Plus they didn’t keep the Pharisee’s idea of the Sabbath at all. They stayed with our Lord, who is our Sabbath. And Paul admonished Peter in front of everyone for keeping the Law in front of the Jewish believers and not when they weren’t around.
And as Paul so beautifully says, when you walk by the Spirit, and bear the fruit of the Spirit, you produce the fruit of love. And love doesn’t murder, doesn’t commit adultery, doesn’t dishonor parents, covet, etc.
So the main difference as I see it, is that your mind is filled with love for Jesus. Not trying to follow rules. Your love will constrain you freely.
But, dear N, you are wanting to follow Him with all your heart and soul. He won’t disappoint you. He will lead you to truth. He is the truth. I loved what 8th day said about reading the Scriptures with prayer, telling Him of the confusion. He will show you. You don’t have to be a scholar (which you are already), to read His word and let Him teach you.
Best wishes and love!
My email reply did not come through. Thank you Jan!!! Beautifully said as always.