I recently entered a discussion with someone who expressed concern that I might be a little too heavy on grace and feel-good verses in the Bible and not heavy enough on the requirements of God. He is not SDA or Hebrew Roots, but an evangelical Christian who is zealously living out his faith in a way that puts 99% of us to shame. I have a great deal of respect for him and I understand his genuine concern for Christians to walk worthy of the Name they carry. I am very disgusted to see and hear believers justify their sin on the basis of grace. None of us are perfect, but a believer should never justify himself in his sin. If he is not grieved, I also have to wonder if his faith is real. Our discussion moved into what defines legalism. I am not in a position to discern if he is a legalist or not, but am responding here to some explanations he gave me. I found it interesting to be having this discussion with someone in the evangelical world rather than with members of the various law-centered groups I have belonged to in the past. I decided to post this so I can refer people here instead of repeatedly explaining my position over and over.
The interesting thing about legalism is everyone thinks they know what it is, but you can’t find anyone who will admit to being one. The very nature of the problem prevents people from seeing they have it. Only by looking to Jesus is this veil removed.
Your assertion that legalism is not defined in the Bible, as well as your own definition of it (that it is simply requiring more than God does) are both the hallmarks of how legalists often defend their positions. Using the phrases “what God requires” and “in order to be accepted by God” also are red flags to me that someone is confusing their legal standing with God, based on Christ’s all-sufficient work alone, and their own success in living up to the righteousness of God they see in Scripture. Even in your explanation that “what God requires is constant repentance for sin” in order to maintain His approval, you are creating an impossible standard that cannot be quantified. I can never know if I am even aware of every sin in motive, action, or omission. The fact that it may be hidden from me makes it no less a sin and no less in need of cleansing from my life. Our justification and approval before God however can be measured at 100% immediately in the moment of our salvation. It does not diminish to 80% or 25% on any given day based on our ability to keep our repentance up to date. If it is possible to fall back into unbelief (big if) then it would go from 100% to 0%. There are no in between states of being. You are in Christ, or you are not.
Legalism – which is coming to God through any other means than through faith (believing ALL He has promised) – is rebuked in its many forms all through the Bible in the Old and New Testaments. People do this in various ways, and for a wide array of reasons. We often live by the natural reflex of our fallen nature. We tend to think something has to depend on us, try to do God’s work in our own way, or accomplish what only God alone can do. We try to get around really submitting to God by looking like we love him on the outside, while still following our own agenda and keeping our secret sins. While it often does manifest as a focus on man-made traditions or standards, it’s definitely not limited to that. We most certainly can be a legalist attempting to obey only God’s commands alone. It can also come in an over-emphasis on God’s laws instead of the Lawgiver (a form of idolatry) and man’s efforts instead of God’s work.
The worst forms of legalism in my opinion are those that teach you cannot be saved (and/or stay saved) unless you successfully meet God’s requirements in your Christian walk. They say, “Yes Jesus died for your past sins, but you better toe the line from now on or He may throw you back out.” There is an element of uncertainty here that can never be overcome and does not bring the “full assurance of faith” described in Hebrews. First of all we can’t find a clear picture of how high the bar is because people come away from Scripture with so many different conclusions about what our obligations are; and secondly, we can never truly know if we have “arrived” or if we have fallen. Even if you do not believe “once saved always saved” there is still much more assurance available in our relationship with Christ than this form of legalism allows. The opposite danger is for the legalist who has not received Christ to take comfort in his obedience as his assurance, filled with pride at his own performance. He is the Pharisee who prays, “Thank you Lord that you have not made me like this pitiful sinner I see over there.”
The New Covenant is conditional only in the sense that God’s covenant with Abraham was. Belief. Read what happened when God made the covenant with Abraham. God did it all, promised it all, and performed it all. He made the oath with Himself. Abraham was involved only to the point that as a bystander, he believed what God had promised. God called it righteousness. He wasn’t perfect either in living out his belief. He fell into doubt and works and tried to make the Promise come about how he thought it should happen. Galatians equates this action of Abraham with the Sinai Covenant. Both of these examples are demonstrations of the failure of works. Works can’t bring about the Promise of God, and works don’t ever hold up our own promises to God. In Christ, we are of the faith of Abraham. We believe the promise of God, but neither are we always perfect in walking in the Spirit when we find opportunities to do it our way.
Sinai was a temporary covenant intended to show man he can’t fix himself, and to foreshadow the perfect finished work in Christ. He made this covenant with Israelites and all those who would agree to be circumcised and join them. (God’s principles are not temporary, but this contract and many details within it were.) It contained conditional blessings and curses depending on their obedience – having to do with the temporary physical realm. Salvation was never promised through this covenant, only earthly blessings and the status of being God’s Chosen People. (Even though Israel broke the covenant, God promised them they would never cease to be a nation before Him. He has kept that promise. He has also promised to completely restore them. God never breaks a promise.) The conditional nature of this covenant based on performance is never implied in the New Covenant. Obedience in the New Covenant comes as a RESULT of an unconditional promise, not a prerequisite. Some legalists see the New Covenant as nothing more than the very same terms and laws as the Old Covenant – except Jesus gave you the power to keep up your end of the bargain now so you have no excuse for failure. This is completely out of line with Hebrews, Romans, Galatians.. Acts.. Short of quoting the entire New Testament, this is trying to live for Jesus under Mt. Sinai, still making promises we can’t keep because like it or not, we are still living in fallen human flesh.
What God requires is absolute and complete perfection. No less. To say He demands less is to find a loophole somewhere (maybe another form of legalism?) I fully admit I can never meet God’s requirements. Only in Christ are they met. In Christ I stand fully and completely forgiven, past, present and future. If this is a dangerous truth – it would be only to those who have not truly known Christ. No one who knows Him can take Him for granted and respond to this flippantly. Result, not Requirement. It’s what God deserves from us, and develops in us – our reasonable service – a living sacrifice. There is no fear of condemnation in failure, but hope and victory when we give it to Him. If we are stubborn, He is faithful to discipline, not reject. (speaking as one who has been more stubborn than submissive). Can I fall into unbelief and throw His gift back into His face? Theoretically I guess it would be possible, but I can’t imagine it. Paul says the “The Love of Christ controls us.” That’s a pretty strong power. It flows from Him to Him and through us to others.
Jesus commanded us to obey Him and He said if we abide (not strive) we will have fruit. I have heard sermons detailing the “to do” list of how to abide in Christ. But Jesus gave a very simple explanation of His own command. “And this is my command, that you love one another as I have loved you.” To have the love of Christ – that is our command. “By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for each other.” But we don’t trust love. We run back to the many details of the letter of the Law, not realizing that Love IS the highest law. It covers morality, justice, compassion. It speaks to every situation. It raises the definition of sin considerably higher as well. I Corinthians 13 shows love is a more excellent way in every way. Self cannot exist on the throne in its presence. It is the very essence of God Himself. But this is not a reason to reject the Word of God which reveals He is also a God of wrath against wickedness and sin. God is full of paradoxes we struggle to balance out. But children do not fear his wrath. We may need to stand in fear of his rod, but not his wrath.
We cannot be transformed to resemble the life of Christ by gazing at the ministry of death (the Law engraved on stones). It serves to show us our depravity, but does not offer any help or hope. (hence the name Paul gives it)
2Corinthians 3:17, 18: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
You cannot behold the Glory of the Lord and not be changed. Isaiah’s instant response was, “I am a man of unclean lips…” We realize our need AND we get the coals from the fire under the throne of God – to cleanse us – the power of our death to sin and a resurrected life!(Romans 7 & 8 )
The legalists in Judaism asked Jesus,
John 6:28, 29 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
The very next word a legalist says is “But…” There is no but. As with Abraham, so with us.
Everything else grows out from there, and the Promise of God does not depend on the level of maturity we achieve from this point onward. Our rewards in the Kingdom are, but not our destiny of eternal fellowship with God.
If we belong to God I believe we will love Him and bear fruit, but I also think we need to be careful in judging the fruits of others. Not only can we be fooled by fake fruit that looks real, but we can also sometimes miss genuine fruit and pass judgment when we have no right to do so. I do believe we need to be accountable to one another in humility, with a great deal of discernment and love, not being puffed up – remembering what we are without Christ. Very few people can hold others accountable in love and humility. Paul said he wrote to the Corinthians, those hard sounding letters, in tears. I don’t see that too often in those who wish to expunge sin from our midst.
I am deeply grieved as you are by “believers” who live as if they have been set free to sin. I don’t know how anyone who has truly seen Jesus and realized the gift of God could not care if they spit on Him an bring shame to His name by calling themselves a Christian. But as I’ve already stated and continue to be redundant, this horrible situation is not cured by placing external demands on people. They must see Jesus as He is and fall on Him in brokenness, either as a lost person, or an immature believer either one. The solution is the same. It is the only way the heart is changed.
Where the Spirit has fruit (Gal. 5:22) legalism also has fruit which is cold, hard, unmerciful, and demanding. It is also often arbitrary because when rules are the focus it becomes impossible to be consistent. It doesn’t understand “exceptions” as Jesus tried to explain to the Pharisees, reminding them of how David ate the bread that was only for the priesthood. It can’t bend for mercy. Judaism has written volumes of Talmud trying to clarify and protect the Law. Legalism of any form always has to do this. People react to the the FRUIT of legalism without realizing the root problem. That’s why they can’t put their finger on what it is.. they sense something amiss, but the root is hidden deep. Often people who are the most disturbed by it have the same problem and they don’t even realize it. There are few things more fierce than legalists battling each other! 😀
After I had lived as a believer for several years, I came to a place that felt like spiritual death, in spite of all my fervent religious activity. I was in misery and thought I must need to try harder. I lost all desire to worship, to reach out, and wanted so badly to just give up because I saw no transformation taking place in myself or anyone else around me in the group we were in. We were very proud of some aspects of our “obedience” but it had not done anything at all to change the things that mattered the most. Finally through reading the gospels and hearing the words of Jesus I was terrified to realize the fruit I valued and was striving to produce had nothing to do with the kind of fruit Jesus said His followers would have. Mine was based on performance, His were centered in having my heart motivated by love – no fake imitations. I was so far from what I saw there that I knew I couldn’t even claim to be His follower at all, even though I appeared very religious, and led a very upright, moral life. It was a time of intense grief and repentance, but I am so thankful God revealed this sin to both me and my husband independently and nearly simultaneously. My deepest sorrow was that I had put Jesus in the backseat and had my “obedience” riding up front with me for all to see, and I was driving!! Now I endeavor to let Him drive, and I try not to be a backseat driver. (He is now my chauffeur.)
Since then I pray for real fruit and God is continuing to answer. He is changing my heart and attitudes. I love people I couldn’t love. I am becoming less cold, hard, and judgmental. Instead I say, “But for the grace of God, there I am. Father help them!” It’s not the old me. Because of the love He is pouring into me and through me, I read I John’s words where he says, “I write these things to you so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.” and agree – not because of what I do, but precisely because I know I didn’t do it, and none of it has come from me. All of God, none of me. The litmus test in I John, in context, is love – over and over he says this. But for some reason, people see the word “commandments” and run back to a list of rules on stone tablets. Those rules fall so short of what God wants to create in us. We are not without law. We have a higher law and a better promise.
Some legalists are not saved because they have never trusted the work of Christ, but believe they earn their way to heaven. But I know some have received the gift, but are not aware of what they possess. Both the legalist and the freedom-loving antinomian spend most of their time pointing out each other’s faults, but both need to see Jesus and the fullness of the Promise and the Sacrifice.
8thDay4Life 
WOW!! Amazingly well put!! You have completely and totally nailed it! Thanks so much for taking the time to write this out.
As for the fruits, it’s like I tried to explain to my 10-year old: Once you put your life in God’s will, once you commit to be His, the Holy Spirit will work out what needs to be worked on, weeded out and attended to! But this happens inside of a relationship with Him.
As an example, I followed him around the kitchen (he was putting away dishes…our best talk times are when we’re cleaning in the kitchen together) gently poking him on the shoulder. I told him that that’s how the Holy Spirit works to weed out sin! He won’t let us rest or be comfortable in doing anything that isn’t in line with God’s perfect will! It’s not the work of US trying to do better/live better/get rid of sin! It’s the work of God in us! If it’s just us trying to “not sin” or follow some set of laws, it’s just more sin, because our focus is off Jesus and what HE’S done!
I hope this makes sense! It’s late and I just got a low battery warning! LOL! Gotta run!
Yes, you are making perfect sense to me! =) Thanks for sharing your thoughts too. I don’t feel it’s possible to really completely cover that subject – I always think of other pictures of it – like how God uses the symbolism of marriage between us and Christ. My relationship with my husband (thankfully!) is not one of fulfilling his demands and requirements – but I LOVE him and am one flesh with him. I don’t have to stop and remind myself what I HAVE to do for him in order for him to still love me and stay married to me. Because I have a husband that loves me the way Christ loves us – a Godly marriage is a beautiful picture of the New Covenant too. It’s a selfless relationship going both directions – with the minor bumps of being human from time to time. But it’s taken years to develop that as well – so I’ll stop before I end up with another 3000 word thing.. ha.
That example resonates with me as well, since I’m married to a fantastic man who has loved me when I was a self-righteous little so-and-so and who continues to love me into middle-age and will love me till my last breath! What a blessing! This is what Jesus intended for marriage so that we could better understand exactly what he was talking about when he used marriage as an illustration!
However, for my 10-year old it wouldn’t quite have had the same ring…tee hee!
You wrote: “You are in Christ, or you are not.” True, agree.
Your wrote: “I am deeply grieved as you are by “believers” who live as if they have been set free to sin.” ….For such “freedom-loving antinomian”, the question always remains : Are they saved ?
Peter taught believers must MAKE their calling and election SURE “Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.” 2Peter 1:10
Salvation is by faith alone, grace alone and in Christ alone.
Martin Luther, the person who helped recovered the Christian faith from dead religion and legalism, believed that. However, look at what he says is true saving faith:
‘Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that does good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of God…To believe, “If faith justifies without works, let us not work,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inside it consists in faith towards God, outside in love towards our fellows” (Luther, Commentary On Galatians, Page 240).’
In his book, Faith Alone, Dr. R.C. Sproul wrote: “The Reformers saw saving faith as necessarily, inevitably, and immediately yielding the fruit of works. Martin Luther insisted that the faith that justifies is a fides viva, a vital and living faith that yields the fruit of works.
Thank you for your comment! Yes, I am in agreement with what you have said. Absolutely. If there is not fruit you can see (keeping in mind you can’t know everything about a person), there is no way to know – you cannot assume the person has received saving faith just because they claim to believe. These discussions however invariably end in disagreements about which and how much fruit must we see before we know for sure? I don’t know the answer to that. This chapter in 2 Peter you quoted starts with saying it’s by the promises of God we partake in the divine nature, then lists those qualities we should desire and with diligence (implying some cooperation on our part) seek to allow GOD to produce this fruit in us. But this verse is interesting: 2 Peter 1:9 “For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having FORGOTTEN his purification from his former sins.” This statment causes me to think some people who are trying to live in both worlds are very immature.
Also, we look at morality/purity issues as our main barometer, but this chapter is outlining much more than this.. We can be just as much in the flesh in our judgmental attitudes, pride, selfish ambition, etc.. acceptable sins, while comforting ourselves in our upright lifestyle. It seems that seeking to judge the position of others leads to an inability to see our own need for growth so many times. (I’ve been so guilty of that!)
I have also been in envrionments where the body believed fruit must be the evidence of salvation, but were so militant about the fruit that everyone was living in fear of being judged as unsaved by their fellow church members, and possibly often doubting their own position in Christ. The place had a terrible atmosphere of doubt and suspicion toward everyone. So, personally, rather than begin to make an issue out of who is saved and who is not in the church.. I would much rather earnestly, fervently, unceasingly pray for the falling of the Holy Spirit and allow Him to do the convicting, because it’s His job and He is so effective at it! 🙂 Lost people will repent or leave, and half-baked believers will truly submit. I believe this heart-wrenching prayer is what will bring true change in the church. It needs to happen. I am nauseated daily by what I see happening in the name of Chirst. There are a lot of tares and alot of people planted in shallow soil. But harping on holiness without the cross will not bring about the desire for it. It may produce a sense of duty or obligation, which can make a person zealous, but it burns out. This is the Old Covenant approach to obedience. Pure adoration for Christ and gratefullness for the priceless gift can bring the genuine transformation in the heart. Love is so much more powerful than “duty” as all the great romantic epics written throughout time have demonstrated. It’s what we die for…
Interesting perspective “God’s Word is Truth.” I have to piggy back on what Sondra was saying with an experience in my life. I have a sister who was saved in her mid-30’s. After this experience which — from all outward appearances — was genuine and heartfelt, she made some decisions and did some things that didn’t quite align with someone who was “saved.”
Just to be clear here: I’m speaking from a “fly-on-the-wall” perspective. I know my sister, her heart, and I knew that she still loved her Jesus! I don’t want to make it seem like I’m judging her…far from it! My house is built of WAY too much glass to be tossing those rocks around!
She then went through a period in her life (of several years) where she wasn’t attending church and other things that wouldn’t have one proclaim, “Now THERE’S a saved soul!” if you know what I mean!
If you looked at her life up to that point, you might have questioned her salvation, her sincerity, her whatever…because during that time she wasn’t demonstrating much fruit, much victory over sin, if you will.
But the ending of the story is my point. God took she and her husband through some very, very trying times! They basically lost everything…and in so doing have learned to live every single day completely reliant on God. They know and believe this with an experiential knowledge that most of us will never have!
That’s why, for me, I always try and deal with “fruit” only as it pertains to ME…not as a “Are they a *real* Christian” or “If they’re a *real* Christian, why don’t *they* have the fruits of the Holy Spirit?” That’s completely and totally the wrong perspective! That’s when the abuse comes in that Sondra spoke of!
Anyone can look at a given person and question and/or judge someone’s salvation or “Christianity” at any given moment (or phase) of another’s life, but that’s just like looking at a snapshot and having the audacity of believing that we can assume something from it!
God has us allllll on different paths! Some of us go the way of searching for Him in the New Age, or Eastern Mysticism (read _No Compromise_ about Keith Green)…others, like Sondra, search for God in legalistic, restricted churches. But through each experience, God is there and calling us to Him…to that relationship that saves us.
For me, chapter 14 in Romans addresses looking for “fruit” in others! Not my business!
God and only God is responsible for the fruit. The minute that the fruit becomes the focus (regardless of whether it’s us looking for it — trying to produce it — in ourselves or looking for it in others) it becomes idolatry.
Thanks Nicole! I appreciate your comments very much! It’s such a fine line sometimes. I have been both surprised and disappointed at times, thinking I knew one way or the other with a person and I was really wrong. On the other hand…. (To quote Tevya) There are places where the Word DOES say to check fruit – in discerning false teachers, and I just read I John last night and chapter 3 is trying to explain how we know who is of God and who is not (based on brotherly love, interestingly). In light of that chapter I can’t say it’s wrong to ever discern fruit – but I think MOST of the time we do it in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. I believe 9 times out of 10, our call would be to pray for the person – not rebuke or confront.
But there is a time and a place for everything – and if we let the Holy Spirit lead, we will know when those times are called for. Recently had an interesting experience with a close family member and felt compelled to plead with them to turn away from their continued cycle of addictions and turn to Christ. I do know in this case, the person has not accepted Christ, and I did not want something to happen to them and me not ever have even tried to reach them. The truth is hard at times.. and here I go getting carried away again. Meant this to be a short reply. oooops. The bad situation I described above btw, was ironically not in an SDA church. =) ha.
This one WILL be quick! Promise!
NOT that I don’t note fruits in leaders…quite the opposite is true! I’m much more likely to “judge” them only to the extent to which I allow them influence in my life.
This is where it gets problematic:
I know of a church leader (an elder) who was addicted to porn and all manner of sexual perversion (without elaborating, this is not hearsay). His wife left him and began living a “life of sin.” He expressed concern and deep grief over her breaking up the marriage. He was adept at showing everyone a very pious face, keeping many fruits visible to all who looked!
All in the church empathized with this “godly” man and a group of men actually went and confronted the wife with her “sins.”
To me, “discerning fruits” in others — especially leaders!! — is a real touch-n-go kind of thing!
Hi Nicole
This is a response to some your comments:
Comment: “God has us allllll on DIFFERENT PATHS! Some of us go the way of searching for Him in the New Age, or Eastern Mysticism …..others, like Sondra, search for God in legalistic, restricted churches. But THROUGH EACH experience, God IS THERE and CALLING US TO HIM…to that relationship that saves us.”
Response: Different paths do not lead to the same ending. Anyone worshipping God in any other forms and non-biblical revelation, not revealed by the God’s Word ( The Bible), it can only be false worship and in reality idolatry and the end is not eternal life. Ultimately, there is only ONE Gospel that save. One Saviour in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ: the only Way, only Truth and only Life. He is only hope for sinful mankind to be spared from God’s righteous judgement and wrath is in God’s only Saviour Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son.
Comment:
” That’s why, for me, I always try and deal with “fruit” only as it pertains to ME…not as a “Are they a *real* Christian” or “If they’re a *real* Christian, why don’t *they* have the fruits of the Holy Spirit?” That’s completely and totally the wrong perspective! That’s when the abuse comes in that Sondra spoke of!” “looking for “fruit” in others! Not my business!”
Response: For the ones you really love and those God whom has placed in into your path to guide, IF they happen to such professing believers , who after making a profession of faith, has absolutely NO desire to follow Christ and NEVER ever hunger and thirst after God’s righteousness ? If a person has NO desire to follow and live like Jesus Christ, has he or she really BELIEVE or KNOW Christ or born again ? Are we still a rebel steep in rebellion or have we bow in surrender to the Sovereign King of Kings ? Was there saving faith? If there is no evidences of saving faith, have you asked yourself honestly, where they might ultimately land up ? It is biblical and loving when we shut our eyes and pretend that somehow they will be fine and somehow we will not be held accountable for what we fail to do for them? Do we care and should we care enough for them and love them enough, NOT to throw bricks at them, but to hold them prayerfully for God to intervene mercifully and by His grace He will use you in some loving way to steer and point them to Jesus Christ?
“Salvation is by grace, by grace alone. Nevertheless, divine grace is not exercised at the expense of holiness for it never compromises with sin. It is also true that salvation is a free gift. But an empty hand must receive it and not a hand which still tightly grasps the world. Something more than believing is necessary to salvation. A heart that is steeled in rebellion against God cannot savingly believe. It must first be broken. And only those who are spiritually blind would declare that Christ will save any who despise His authority and refuse His yoke. Those preachers who tell sinners they may be saved without forsaking their idols, without repenting, without surrendering to the lordship of Christ are as erroneous and dangerous as others who insist that salvation is by works and that heaven must be earned by their own efforts,” Quote from the late Arthur Pink
Comment:
“God and only God is responsible for the fruit.”
Response: I Agree, it is biblical. For saved child of God, in God’s continuing work through His Holy Spirit and by His words sanctifying, we must be patience and prayerfully seek God’s grace and submit to Him. God does His work at different pace in different people, according to His revealed truth. Sanctification is by God’s grace, but it is cooperative in nature, the saved believer cooperates with the Holy Spirit. A saved Christian’s life is a life of struggle with the existing old-self, sin and satan. However, Christ has already given us the victory, we need to reckon ourselves indeed as dead to sin and alive to God. We must turn to Christ daily and rely on Christ finished work and also seek His grace daily to live out the Holy Spirit powered lives. It is not easy. But God promised and he has it ready on a tap all that we need to live the abundant life, a life of joy and victory in Christ. God’s commandments, the law is no longer our master or our taskmaster, we turn to follow Christ and follow God’s commandments because God has now written His laws into our hearts, this is the new covenant. God’s laws guide us, it should be our delight and joy to follow Christ and obey God. IF we LOVE Him, we DO His commandments.
Comment:
“The minute that the fruit becomes the focus (regardless of whether it’s us looking for it — trying to produce it — in ourselves or looking for it in others) it becomes idolatry.”
Response: I have to disagree with your comment, it is not biblically true. By faith in Christ through grace, God has given us new birth, a new nature, a new creation through the Holy Spirit, we have been called out of sin and out of darkness with power to be the children of a Holy God. I encourage you to review the many scriptures on this but this one in 2 Peter 1 is particularly helpful:
2Pe 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
2Pe 1:4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.
2Pe 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
2Pe 1:7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
2Pe 1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
“Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in LIVES of HOLINESS and GODLINESS,waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, …….THEREFORE, beloved, since you are waiting for these, BE DILIGENT to BE FOUND by him without spot or blemish, and at peace 2Peter 3:11-14
Shalom
Hmmm…okay, well, it’s late, I have a rather large family, the youngest ones of whom will be up early. For this reason, I will try to be brief, even tho’ brevity risks misunderstanding as this first comment I will address proves beyond question!
Your Response:
Different paths do not lead to the same ending…Ultimately, there is only ONE Gospel that save.
(Is this my comment or my response, or counter-comment/counter-response? I’m so confused):
In the midst of your response, you made my point for me in one word, succinct, to the point. “Ultimately.”
Exactly. Ultimately.
Jesus said that He is the Way (should I capitalize T or not…don’t want to phrase it incorrectly), the Truth and the Light and NO MAN comes to the Father except by/through Him. I wholeheartedly agree with this and there isn’t a way through Eastern Mysticism, New Age, Buddhism or Taoism to God. That was NOT the intent of my comments, to assert the belief that all religions or schools of religious thought will achieve salvation.
I will reassert and reaffirm my belief that God will use ANY and ALL experiences in our life to draw us to Him, to Jesus (and not the “woo woo” one).
The reason I mentioned New Age and Eastern Mysticism (and Keith Green) is because he dabbled in both as did my husband early on in our marriage. I wouldn’t recommend it!! Subtle, dangerous stuff, that! But if you’re there…so is God! He loves you enough to bring you out of it, if you’re willing to be led, and into relationship with Him.
Not sure how to make it any clearer. Only one WAY to God: Jesus. Many different paths: I’ve never done drugs, but many who have, find themselves brought by a passionately loving God into a saving relationship with Jesus. I’ve never been a Muslim or Buddhist, but many who have, have found the Source of love and salvation!
But you knew this, you were just playing with me.
You wrote:
For the ones you really love and those God whom has placed in into your path to guide…It is biblical and loving when we shut our eyes and pretend that somehow they will be fine and somehow we will not be held accountable for what we fail to do for them?…but to hold them prayerfully for God to intervene…
My whatever:
What’s funny is that I initially wrote that all I could do for her was pray. But in re-reading, I realized that it might sound almost judgmental, so edited out. I agree whole heartedly! Prayer is the best option! I was simply saying that it’s not my place to judge, comment or otherwise behave as if their fruits or lack thereof is ANY of my business!
Ooooooh!! I’m trying to make this short! I really AM! But as I start typing and re-reading what you wrote (to make sure I don’t misquote or that I understand), I have other thoughts!
You wrote:
But an empty hand must receive it and not a hand which still tightly grasps the world.
This concept of grasping the world while reaching out for salvation!! That’s REALLY off-kilter in MY world!! Because a subtle message there is that WE have to have cleaned the slate before we accept salvation!
REALLY?!! I have to believe that you don’t believe that, but are being misunderstood. Because to me, you really *DO* reach for salvation with all manner of ugliness and addiction (i.e. the world) firmly planted in your life…er…hand…er…whatever! Or at least you can!
No, I retract the implied message there…the ugliness and addiction may be unseen by human eyes, but it IS there, nonetheless! Because before the saving power of Jesus in your life, all cleanliness will be outward only…emptied hands momentarily, and superficially, so!
AFTER you accept salvation, you are no longer RECEIVING it, unless you are asserting that you must attain it again and again? Did you mean to say what I interpreted? If not, forgive me…
If you ARE saying that you must receive salvation again and again (and each time empty your hand before doing so), then I’d like to see biblical proof of this concept.
You wrote:
Something more than believing is necessary to salvation.
Respectfully, I must disagree! POSSIBLY we could have a conversation about “something more than believing is necessary for SANCTIFICATION,” but for salvation, believing is, quite simply, enough.
I believe Christ gave us the precious, precious story of the thief on the cross as the ultimate rejection of the concept that we must do SOMETHING more than just believe to receive salvation.
You wrote:
Sanctification is by God’s grace, but it is cooperative in nature, the saved believer cooperates with the Holy Spirit. A saved Christian’s life is a life of struggle with the existing old-self, sin and satan.
Again, I’m afraid I might be misconstruing your words. We may agree more than disagree if I’ve interpreted incorrectly. To me, sanctification is “cooperative” only in that the saved one, the sinner, invites the Holy Spirit in and gives Him permission to do whatever He will in his life. Sometimes this is daily, sometimes this is a plea that goes for days, weeks, months without being repeated consciously. God knows the heart that is truly submitted to Him regardless of whether or not we faithfully repeat it each morning. He WILL *both* will and do His good pleasure in us (Phil 2:13). He will ALSO be faithful to complete the good work HE’S begun in you/me! Phil 1:6.
One thing I know. A Christian struggling with old-self, sin and satan (if HE is, in fact, doing the struggling), will lose. Paul makes THAT quite clear in Romans 7: 15-19.
You wrote (re: focus on fruits = idolatry):
I have to disagree with your comment, it is not biblically true.
Okay, well I’ll get to the Bible in a minute. First turn in your…um…browser…to um…www.m-w.com:
Definition of god (noun) …3 : a person or thing of supreme value.
NOW, go to Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.”
Back to good ole Merriam-Webster:
Definition of idol (noun) …4: an object of extreme devotion
And hopefully you saved your place in Exodus 20. Verse 4 this time “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”
Definition of focus (noun) …5b : a point of concentration and 7: directed attention.
So I’ll repeat my assertion slowly:
The minute…that…the fruit…becomes…the FOCUS…[replacing God and His perfecting work in us]…it becomes…idolatry.
Again, you provided ample proof of WHO is at work in this “fruits” business. In the very first verse you gave:
2 Peter 1:3 His divine power [notice no space here! No dot dot dot where something else could have been left out! OUR contribution has been completely overlooked] has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him [the WHAT?! Not our efforts or diligence??] who called us to his own glory and excellence…
I know it says all that stuff later about “make every effort” and “being all the more diligent”…and it’s not that I discount it! I just have a REALLY fuzzy picture of asking the Apostle Peter, “Did you REALLY mean that our efforts and our diligence amount to more than a hill of beans in this whole process?” and him responding resoundingly, “OH, YES! Of course!”
If so, he would be directly contradicting Paul who called our righteousness, our efforts, our BEST…filthy rags. And believe you me? Their rags back then were MUCH filthier than ours now! No Maytag! {wink}
Again, in MY way of thinking, going back to my very first, perhaps juvenile-oriented example, “making every effort” and/or “being all the more diligent” has more to do with me NOT ignoring the POKINGS of the Holy Spirit than anything I ACTIVELY do do, if you see what I’m saying.
And if you don’t, well, that’s all there is for tonight. I’ve failed miserably at making this short and am already up WAY later than I promised myself I’d be. But it’s not your fault. I won’t lay that at YOUR feet. I lay it squarely at the feet of my beloved who gave me a GRANDE COFFEE FRAPPUCHINO at 3:30 this afternoon.
Shabbat Shalom! More than there will be at MY house tomorrow morning when my husband asks what time *I* got to bed (as he lays on the couch next to me snoring)!!
ps…Oh, and for the proof-reading and editing…I’m gonna read through it once more and if I don’t see it, find it, please excuse it!
Blame it on the caffeine!
First I want to acknowledge that YOU didn’t say make that statement about the empty hand receiving salvation; Arthur Pink did.
Having no clue who Arthur Pink was (should I feel guilty about this??), I googled him.
Seems he was part of a gnostic cult! THAT’S an interesting path there, huh?? Seems God had to pull him out of that to get him to the right Way! LOL!
So I directed my comments at you, assuming you’d written them. Please feel free to address them since it’s probably safe to say that you agree with them having quoted them!
Correction: I respectfully disagree with Mr. Pink. Again…I picture myself having “really really” conversations with people (as I mentioned earlier with the Apostle Peter)! Do you REALLY believe that?! REALLY?!
“Excuse me, Mr. Pink {struggling to maintain a straight face}. Can I ask you a question? Do you REALLY believe that the sinner is responsible for emptying his/her hands before receiving salvation?! REALLY?!!
“No disrespect, sir, but are you really saying that the one and only time you ‘receive’ salvation, you must have empty hands? As in ‘clean’ hands? As in, already given up ‘the world?’
“Well, then could you clarify for me by whose power you’ve emptied your hands? Oh, by the power of the Holy Spirit?
“Now you’re really going to have to bear with me, because I don’t understand how the work of the Holy Spirit, sanctification, can precede the work of Christ which is…well, which is salvation!
“Oh..oh…I understand. Okay, that may clarify things. ‘Salvation is not to be presumed,’ and by that it is something to be lost and regained? And the SECOND time around, your hands may be clean…er…cleaner.”
Please forgive the flight of fancy…especially that last paragraph! But I read that he was “known for his staunchly Calvinist and puritanical-like teachings.” Perhaps I assumed incorrectly that they believe that salvation is not a one-time gift…
I’m quite sure there was another point I was going to make, but in my caffeine-addled state, I’ve no clue what it was! Sleep is what I need and sleep is what escapes me!
Hi Nicole,
If you have 2 minutes to spare, do check out this youtube video on a short clip by Pastor John Piper where he reflect on what does receiving Jesus Christ actually mean?
Pastor John Piper said Jesus must be our most valuable treasure. He is someone we will give up everything and everyone we have on this earth to lay hold of because there can be nothing more valuable than Jesus Christ. A short clip with a terse warning to every professing believer to ask ourselves: who is Jesus Christ in your life ?
If you have more time………
What does “Believing in Jesus” & “Receiving Jesus” & “Having a personal relationship to Jesus” mean …biblically?
A couple of really helpful Pastor John Macarthur’s youtubevideo posted on this post:
1. Gospel: An Invitation to be a Slave
http://godwordistruth.wordpress.com/an-invitation-to-be-a-slave/
2. The Gospel is an invitation to be a slave of Jesus Christ
http://godwordistruth.wordpress.com/2009/05/20/the-gospel-is-an-invitation-to-be-a-slave-of-jesus-christ/
Shalom
Interesting dialogue. I think the issue here is words and what they mean. Coming from our background Nicole, statements like Arthur Pink’s can come across to us differently than they were intended. Total surrender does not mean total perfection – as we may have been taught that it does. It’s an attitude of the heart. It has taken a long time for me to understand some things that are very simply taken for granted by evangelical Christians. I had NO idea what it actually meant to be “born again” until a couple years ago. I had experienced repentance and my life changed dramatically long before I understood what had actually happened to me. Up to that point, I previously had head knowledge, and had tried to come to God at different times on my own terms – not through my death with Him on the cross, or being raised with Him. This is what I think he means by having something in our hands – thinking we can see the standard and reach for it by reforming ourselves, or wanting the benefits of salvation yet not willing to turn away from our wretchedness. We can’t do either of those things – we have to die and live in Christ alone. I am pretty sure you know this and have experienced this too – just compulsively explaining. =)
Belief is all that God requires – but what does the Bible mean by belief? When the Bible says the demons believe – how is that different from the belief we have that leads to salvation?
To believe in Christ means to not just a mental assent to a historical/theological fact – but to accept His gift and answer His call to follow Him no matter what. It’s a matter of the heart/mind/spirit – not just the head. Not believing we even had a human spirit that could be quickened and made alive with Christ also made it very hard to understand the spiritual miracle of the New Birth.
I grew up thinking that “conversion” (the only acceptable term we were allowed to use) meant having the right knowledge of certain doctrines, acknowledging Jesus paid for my sins (mental assent), and maintaining a certain level of obedience/confession in order to maintain my standing with God – at which point I could never fully rest in Him since I could never know if I was adequately holding up my end of the agreement. I don’t know if you were taught this Nicole – but we weren’t allowed to even say we were saved. I remember being taught at a very young age how it was wrong when Christians pointed to the moment of their conversions and claimed it was on this day they were saved and their lives were changed. We had to be saved every day – every moment.
I have just come back from seeing my grandmother – 96 years old. (her mind is still very sharp – no dementia at all) She is still living under this bondage. I saw her break down – sobbing – with no assurance at all so close to her death. Every promise of God I shared, she added to it with what she herself must do, or claimed it was conditional. At one point she told us she was sure Satan was trying to come between her and Christ through trials in her life.. She thinks one wrong thought or word can nullify her standing with God. I came away from that experience very shaken. I have always wanted to believe we both had Christ – but just had some differences of interpretation. Now I fear it’s much more than that. I love her so much it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to see. I was kidding myself thinking I could ease her fears being the family heretic – but I guess every family needs at least one. =)
I want to personally thank all long-winded commentators. ha. I don’t feel so bad now.
Godswordistruth – thanks for the resources!